Steroids & Testosterone: The Science Behind Anabolic Therapies | Nelson Vergel

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 00:00

From an HIV diagnosis in the 1980s to becoming one of the world's leading voices in hormone optimization. Today's guest has spent his life defying the odds and changing the conversation about health. Nelson Virgil was once told he wouldn't live past 30. Now in his 60s, he's thriving thanks in part, to testosterone and anabolic therapies that have helped him and countless others regain strength, energy and quality of life, today, we uncover the misunderstood world of testosterone steroids and hormone optimization. How can these therapies help people beyond body building, or are they truly dangerous or just stigmatized. Let's find out. I just wanted to jump on here with an exciting announcement. I am hosting the second ever forever strong Summit, April, 26 27th in Houston, Texas, 2025 there's going to be two days the VIP day on April 26 you will learn from former Navy SEALs, from former secret service, from individuals that you do not want to miss myself, my inner tribe will be there to support you to learn everything from muscle health to science to nutrition. You don't have to be an expert. You don't even have to have a background. All you have to have is a will to win and stay strong. I will put a link in the show notes below. Please go to my website, Dr gabrielline.com, we sold out last year, and I would hate for you to miss this opportunity. So if you're waiting for a sign, if you're thinking, you need to change something up and you need community friends, we've got you covered. Nelson Vergel, welcome to the show.

Nelson Vergel: 01:54

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 01:56

You are a very unique guest, and I want to share a little bit about your background and one of your perspectives, which you have many in terms of anabolic steroids, wasting syndrome, the future of medicine when we think about body composition, you are uniquely positioned to have an opinion on this, and I want to hear it from You. But in the mid 80s, you learned you were HIV positive,

Nelson Vergel: 02:23

yeah,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 02:25

at the time, can you share what that landscape was like?

Nelson Vergel: 02:29

Oh, it was horrible, even, even remembering those days, I tried to block him, but I'm going to talk about it today. Yeah, I got here in this to the states from Venezuela in 84. I met somebody that I wanted to move in with, and came to the master's degree. And a year later, less than a year later, he tested behind my back, because back then, the test use had come out that year, 8584 the HIV test. HIV test, yeah, we didn't have a test before. People were speculating that gay men were getting it through drug use and other stuff. They didn't really think it was a virus until 8485 where the virus the test actually was, was discovered, and back then, nobody in my community wanted to get tested because there were no treatments. So why? You know, why be told that you're gonna die and have nothing to do about it, you know? So I didn't want to get tested, but my partner behind my back did get tested. So he told me he was positive, and I was sure that was positive. So here in Houston, we only had a little place called the Montrose clinic. There was a little trailer that they had set up for HIV, and went there to get tested. And obviously, I was tested and positive. And that was within a year that I had come to this country, you know, to make, to try to get the American dream too, you know, and your training as a chemical I was a chemical engineer already. I just came here for an MBA, and, you know, for more studies Dean actually moving here because I lived in Venezuela. I went to school in Canada, in Montreal, but went to work for the oil business in Venezuela, but I knew it wasn't for me. So anyway, so that kind of felt like I was, you know, hit in the face with all my dreams, you know. How old were you? 24 years of age, you know. So it's very hard. But I cried for like, four days I remember, but I something told me it's like, don't give up. Just research and there was nothing. There was no newsletters, no internet, no internet, no fax machines. So that was the hardest part, trying to find information. And I saw a notice at the clinic. I got tested at Montrose clinic. Now, there's a big clinic now, but anyways, that the CDC was looking for volunteers to be trained as counselors, people that actually gave results. So. How the first training I got from the CDC? So that's how I know, oh, there are trainings out there that I can get information from.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 05:06

At the time there when an individual in the 80s, when they were diagnosed with HIV, was there a projection for how long someone was going to live and what would they die of? Most

Nelson Vergel: 05:19

people would drop within a year. I've been told that they're HIV positive, and most people would die of wasting syndrome. You'll see basically, and you see them in the grocery stores in Montrose, especially people really skinny, like the concentration camp victims. Something else that was obvious is people get spots on their face. Ks, which is another, which is another virus that attacks you up when your immune system is depleted. So, yeah, all my friends started to drop like that. You know, we were going to memorial services every weekend. The whole mantra, mantras was well known back then for being like a gay community, gay neighborhood, it's not it no longer the case, but memorial services every weekend, when somebody would not call you back, you would assume they were dying, and it was horrible. Hospitals. They want to treat us, the ones that did, they have to put, you know, masks and suits. People were being kicked out of their families. It was, it was a horrible nightmare. And after what? 50 years, 45 years, people are forgetting about

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 06:33

people are forgetting about it now, yeah, yeah. I want to paint the picture for the listener or the viewer that in the mid 80s, HIV AIDS was devastating to a community of people, to the individual, to the family. The treatment was unknown. People were dying of wasting syndrome, skeletal muscle and systemic wasting. The individuals are also getting lesions on their face, carposty sarcoma. Fast forward to now. How many people or how deadly is HIV? Now?

Nelson Vergel: 07:11

Not deadly at all. It's almost like having diabetes. You can control it very well. There are over 18 treatments. I'm one of I'm a survivor. 4243 years. But it took, I took a lot of work. We were without treatment for since 1996 I found writing 1985 so wow, that time we were without treatment.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 07:38

You went from so that's what? 10? Yeah, almost 10 years, yeah, all of

Nelson Vergel: 07:42

us, all of us were in the closet at work, so we were afraid to be showing the symptoms of wasting, or waste, facial wasting, weight loss. That okay? Yes. So I was horrified. I was upset.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 07:55

Ks, what is that? Okay? Ks,

Nelson Vergel: 07:58

okay. I had, you know, engineering jobs, shell different oil companies that actually finally worked, found a job, and I couldn't disclose, I couldn't disclose I was gay or HIV positive, but I was horrified every day looking at myself in the mirror if I was going to show symptoms or wasting I started losing weight, and I that's when I realized, oh my god, I'm next. So it's intense, intense. I was I was saved, my my life was safe when I was transferred by Shell to LA, where bodybuilding is a culture, and that's where I found out, in support groups, there were two guys that came in. We were all skinny. Was losing weight. I had lost already 12 pounds, and these two guys were pumped, and looked great. Did they have HIV? They have HIV there. And they were in the we had support groups. One was run by Marian Williamson, anyways, and I went

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 09:00

to talk to Williamson. Mario Williams, yeah, it's no small name

Nelson Vergel: 09:04

was our she was our guy, our coach. Interesting. She were teaching us not to feel sorry for ourselves, that we were not victims. We can die with dignity. That's how I learned from her, yeah, yeah. Mary Louise, and she's from Houston too. She is. I did not know that anyway. So I went to talk to them is, listen, we're all you guys are doing something. I really want to know what you're doing. And they taught me about dandelion and oxen alone and testosterone. Even went with me to Mexico to get some and that's how I that's how I reversed 35 pounds. This

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 09:38

is exactly why I want, well, number one, you and I are friends. We have a common friend in common, Sean Noreen, who is the founder and owner of the largest compounding pharmacy in the world. Shout out to empower pharmacy. But what you are saying is heavy and it is deep and is complex in the way that you were given a diagnosis that we knew. Going to cause severe wasting and death. You've lost a ton of people. The medical community was not able to support the treatment. It was largely unknown. People didn't even know it was happening. You go to LA, all of a sudden you, and I'm paraphrasing, you see large buff bodybuilders the era, probably, of Arnold Schwarzenegger esque in Venice. And these are individuals that were utilizing not FDA approved treatments for HIV to build muscle and actually survive.

Nelson Vergel: 10:36

Yes, yes, I embrace that. Bodybuilding saved my life. Body builders saved my life. So if it wasn't for them, and they died eventually, of other things, because some of us were able to gain enough lean body mass, and I want to talk about lean body mass and the difference. But anyways, we also had a really good researcher that found out that once we lost a third of our lean body mass, you would die no matter what. Cancer, cachex, cancer, HIV, anything, a lot of us have lost our, you know, parents or grandparents and use that's usually what happens at the end of this stage. So that's when we realized, in the whole community, realized that having muscle meant survival, or at least buying time. Obviously, was not a cure, you know, but I wanted to buy time because I knew, you know, researchers started a CT was already being studied, which ended up being a toxic drug anyways, that killed those faster. So I knew time was an essence to at least buy some time. So I did. I gained 35 pounds. I was like, woken up. People at work would say, wow, my God, you're working out. You look so great. They were already asking me, I remember, I was terrified. You don't you look tired before? Are you sleeping? Well, you know, so that's when. And then they switched to, oh, my God, I want to know what you're doing. And that really gave me the will to live like I really did, and I want to preach. I just wanted everybody we had nothing to lose. You're going to die. I wanted everybody to know about it. All the doctors, even though, obviously there's stigma. Not only, HIV has a stigma, being gay has a stigma, and embolic steroids have a stigma. So I was had to deal with three stigmas to get over that, but I was successful, even without the internet, even without, yeah, without any ways to actually spread the information nationwide. What safety was the invention of a fax machine. When the fax machine came, I was unstoppable, because I faxed every doctor that I that I could in the United States about, about my program. I actually

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 12:47

did a song. Is it still so this is so is this the non for profit, the program for wellness, restoration? Yeah.

Nelson Vergel: 12:52

It was called The Power Program. Power Program. Doctors jumped on it because doctors were horrified how fast their their patients were dying, and they Yeah, they embraced it,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 13:03

and this was the strategies for reversing wasting with the use of FDA approved anabolic steroids for men and women. Yeah, there is a huge stigma. And I just want to say that I believe we are going to look back at obesity and say obesity is similar to how HIV has been able to be treated, that maybe there is a way in which we can manage it, especially with the use of GLP ones, it potentially obesity might look very similar to how we have largely stopped talking about HIV, I

Nelson Vergel: 13:44

hope so. And there is, there's hope for that. There

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 13:46

is hope with the use of GLP ones and this anabolic steroid use that is FDA approved. Now the question is, and what I'd love to hear from you is, if you could paint the picture of what it was like in terms of anabolic use. Where were the stigmas? Where do you think that they were born? Why was it that up until a certain point, a person, a patient, could go to the doctor and say, You know what, I want to have stronger muscles probably be able to be prescribed and anabolic versus then sports happen, Congress, all these other things, and then shut it down, and really has, now what I believe changed the trajectory of aging for everybody because of this heavy stigma. And I'm talking about beyond hormone replacement. Yeah,

Nelson Vergel: 14:34

that's a good question. You know, most of these molecules, most of these products, were developed 50 years ago. So they're all we have good data on androlon, and people don't know. People say FDA approved, yeah, we have four FDA approved anabolic agents. I like to call them androgens, because really, that's what they are. I

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 14:55

think that's a much better term. It also reduces our lexicon I'm speaking about. It also reduced. Stigma, of course.

Nelson Vergel: 15:00

So you know, they were prescribed for anemia, for different conditions, even for frailty related to aging, back in the 70s, 80s, you know, until the anabolic steroid Act was enacted, mostly to combat the use of anabolics in sports, in baseball, as we know, and all the other stuff. And that really kind of shut the door to all the research, and we can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, it completely unless in HIV, we continue with the research. I was able to belong to, to join committees at the NIH, the National Institute of Health, part of the FAA, that's a long story, and I was able to advocate with a bunch of my activist friends. I became an activist for federally funded studies on Neanderthal and oxyanolone, testosterone, exercise in HIV positive men and women.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 15:57

Neanderloan, oxyandolon, testosterone, oxymethalone is

Nelson Vergel: 16:01

another one. But that's that's one we only studied once, because it does have some liver toxicity issues. Is that an oral agent or agent, the two oral three or oxymethalone, oxerlon, those are orals, the three of them, sorry, and dandelion is injectable and testosterone. Testosterone is anabolic steroid, also, obviously less stigma about testosterone nowadays. Definitely changed. But, yeah, that really changed everything the Naboo steroid Control Act, which was, you know, just based on not having people cheat in sports, I always say the definition of cheating, although there is a new movement of having Olympics in a different dance games. But anyways, that really was, but we continued in HIV. Obviously we had the risk to benefit ratio was different for people with HIV, because they

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 17:02

were going to die to a anemic patient, or because it was used, if you look at some of the studies, neanderlo was used for postmenopausal women and osteoporosis, yeah,

Nelson Vergel: 17:13

and breast cancer, the you know, like metastasized advanced breast cancer. Did

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 17:19

the you know, you said that you'd become an activist. What does an activist do? And what is the, you know, what's the role of an activist in terms of what they are hoping for and what the outcome would be? Yeah,

Nelson Vergel: 17:32

activists, at least an HIV. And now we have HIV cure activists, and part of that world too, because now we're proceeding to a cure. But anyways, activists will really get together strategize about strategy on how we're going to get a treatment approved or access approved, and we really show up to FDA meetings. I've

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 17:53

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Nelson Vergel: 19:17

Yeah, almost every product has a comment section or a comment period where the public is but most people don't know about it, the public's invited to either send emails. Well, now we have the Internet back then we have faxes. Oh, faxes. We have to show up now, but we are. That's what we did. We show up to all the meetings and and some people were afraid of us because ACT UP used to shut down traffic in New York. ACT UP was a main activist group in HIV. Act they actually chained themselves to Wall Street to decrease the price of a CT. I mean, the New Yorkers and the San Francisco. Of activists were the most actives. I was in Houston, Texas, doing all this work with the medical use of anabolics for men and women. And people also have this stigma that only men use it and for clinical use of terrorists. I also did some work with oncologists here in Houston that were more open minded to treating wasting in cancercase do so. And

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 20:22

you know, wasting itself is a disease. And again, a disease state or a highly catabolic state. And then sarcopenia, which is the decrease in muscle mass and function, finally got an ICD 10 code. And do you know when 2016 Yeah, finally got a diagnosis.

Nelson Vergel: 20:37

No indication, though, no product being indicated yet. Why? Why is that?

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 20:44

Don't know why? Tell me, but it seems as if we have treatment for low muscle mass. Yeah, oxen

Nelson Vergel: 20:49

alone and alone are perfectly especially oxen alone, because it can be used, really, in women, men and children. Has been studied in pediatrics too safely

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 20:59

and we again, this is a very complicated topic that we are discussing, not just from a medical perspective, right? This is deep stigma about this idea of anabolic agents when they should be used when they shouldn't. Who should be able to use it and who shouldn't? And where we're at is we are entering a new epidemic, and that epidemic is going to be trading obesity for an epidemic of sarcopenia and osteoporosis, from what I believe, like we've never seen before, I

Nelson Vergel: 21:32

agree. I agree, the loss of lean body mass happens more so with GLP ones, you know. And even though they're great. I mean, they're a miracle. They are amazing. Yes, they should be adjunct therapies. Androgens could be adjunct therapies to GLP ones. And perfectly.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 21:51

I agree with you. And I think one of the things that I found so fascinating about you is that if we were to take a step back and we look at the Houston Buyers Club. So there's the Dallas Buyers Club that everyone knows about, but there's also a Houston's Buyers Club. And one of the things that is just spectacular, and I do think that you should write a book on your story, is that you informed physicians from a group of individuals that had nothing to lose because they were going to die to survive, and started working with doctors and educating doctors on anabolic agents, which now fast forward to urologists and Andrology really The only specialty that I think is doing it right and well and forward thinking. So tell me when you began that.

Nelson Vergel: 22:52

But think about it. I mean, there's this epidemic that kills you. You're in your 20s. Most of us were very young. Yeah, most activists were we're in our 20s. We had energy. We knew we're gonna die. We had nothing to lose. The perfect combination for an activist movement, you know, that we probably haven't had since then. So we organized, and we had no Internet, and we organized, and some of us became specialized. I mean, I, my specialty was wasting a metabolic, metabolic syndrome. So, like, we had metabolic issues too. Some of the people would, you know, specialize on on other like, mostly women's issues, health issues. So we became, we were lay people. I was an engineer. Some of us, you know, had medical clinical backgrounds, but most people weren't. So we had to educate ourselves. I had to go to a library and read everything about anabolic steroids and androgens, because there was a lot of research. There's a lot of research that was done in the 40s, 50s, 60s. And then I had to translate that and make sure that I would tell the doctors. Doctors were desperate. Doctors treating HIV were desperate. They were their patients were dying. They were losing their you know, people, so they, they were, they had, they completely, right away, took on,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 24:13

did they? Did you have resistance for from physicians? So a physician would say, Okay, well, you're a, okay, you're a chemical engineer. But this is lay public. How are you gonna? No? Tell us. No, no, there

Nelson Vergel: 24:25

was no resistance, because a these were FDA approved products. Yes, their schedule mentioned. Yeah, their schedule three. Okay, so then, yeah, you have to have a DEA number. When a doctor prescribes it, they have to write a DEA number. It's like testosterone. Testosterone is a schedule three by the DEA. So anabolics, like nandalon, is like testosterone. It's really all these molecules are very closely related to testosterone. They were modified by researchers to slow down the liver metabolism so they could stay longer in the body. So. Right? So they're very, I mean, you look at the molecules, they're very close. So they're schedule three, they're prescribable. You're not breaking the law by prescribing them. You can prescribe them off label. And there are many we can talk about the off label uses and and in HIV, obviously, doctors didn't care, because they knew something. Anything that worked, and it worked and it worked quickly. These things work, and within a month people are gaining weight, strength, energy, mood. I mean, this is not just about muscle and we know that increasing muscle mass increases, you know, longevity and survival. So it was the perfect storm, really, was I? I've never had a pushback. I never had a problem with the government. Actually was welcoming, because there was a bit it was a number two cause of AIDS death. You know, the first one was BCP pneumonia. So pneumonia fungus that would take over our lungs. But this was a number two, so this was a solution to that problem. And then, obviously, in 9697 we had the protease inhibitors came in, better drugs came in. They had horrible side effects, but at least our viral load, our HIV, was able to be undetected, undetectable, and that really made a big difference. So we bought, most of us bought at least five to six years, and many of my friends died before 94 so I was, I'm just lucky. I was in the right place. I was curious, I was fearless. So it's not like I don't know if I would do this again, because they this. Their circumstances was a perfect storm. Doctors were at, you know, they were welcoming this information. I was sending faxes. They would call me the NIH was welcoming. Yes, they wanted us to take may gaze, which was a progesterone product, hunger for hunger, where may gaze only increases fat mass, not lean body mass. They wanted us to take Marinol. We had basically THC, THC approved to try

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 27:04

to even none of that did anything for no muscle. When you discovered this change that these bodybuilders were using anabolics to save lives. How was it accessible? So, what is this idea of the Houston Buyers Club?

Nelson Vergel: 27:20

Oh, the Houston bears Club was we were looking for treatments for HIV. There was nothing obviously a CT actually, was found to be killing us faster. They were a CT studies. I was in the study. Thank God. I found out when they opened the open label, you know, when they opened the label, that I was on placebo, because I would be dead. I was depressed. Oh, my God. I want placebo. And what was the AZT? AC, T is a nucleoside reverse tranquil stays. It's a inhibitor that was used in cancer back in the 50s, and it has, it has HIV activity. It's just that the toxicities to the mitochondria. Do they use that anymore at all? No, no. Is banned from HIV was banned in 2002 or something like that. The mitochondria would destroy our mitochondria. Imagine that. But you know, HIV would actually go down. So anyways, I was on placebo. So I survived also, because I was in that study. My My partner was in the treatment arm. He died faster, so I had three boyfriends die, so you have to bury all those people too. So it's a lot of sometimes, you know, I think it was luck, but sometimes being the right place, right? Sometimes it's, I think, being curious and not giving up, even without internet. You know, sometimes the power of community really saves everything. I mean, I don't think we're gonna, I hope, I pray, we never have another thing like this in this world. You know, even, you know, obviously COVID kind of woke us up too. I was like, Oh no, not another one, right? We got, you know, we have PTSD, most of us, I'm sure they monkey pox. Oh, my God, not again. So every time something comes up, all of us are triggered. The ones are still alive. And the

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 29:06

the reason that the buyer's club happened was that, from what I understand, physicians were not providing anabolics and they had to, is that true, that they just had to go somewhere.

Nelson Vergel: 29:21

No, the anabolics. Well, a lot of people went to Mexico get it there, because Mexico you can get it without a prescription, most of them, but the virus Club was mostly related to finding treatments for HIV. So not anabolics, no, because anabolics are FDA approved. Anabolics are available by prescription. So all HIV doctors and people, really, there were some doctors non infectious disease, some family doctors, they specialized on HIV. Believe it or not, their fear actually decreased in the early 90s. My doctor, I've been with him for years too, and he embraced this. There became. Experts. They're experts on androgens HIV. Doctors are especially really, oh yeah, now, yeah, the ones are still in practice. Yeah, they're experts. Learned 30 years of actually giving these compounds to men and women. So the buyer's club, basically, we were importing stuff from Israel, from Mexico, from South America, from Germany, products that had some data on being immune boosters. You know, herbal products from Asia and, yeah, we had support groups where we would do enemas with Chinese herbal tea that was supposed to increase your immune system. So there were, that's where the virus club came in as a main source of finding alternatives or treatments for a virus that we didn't have treatments for, and the Dallas virus Club, which they made a movie of. But the Houston virus Club was first, and

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 30:55

people don't know that. People don't know. I mean, I, before I moved here, I didn't know that there was a Houston, Houston Buyers Club, when we think about lean body mass, I would love for you to share again, also for people listening. You are not a physician, but what you have in spades is experience. And you have a group of 40. How many 1000? 42,000,

Nelson Vergel: 31:20

on Excel, mail.com, but Facebook have groups also, and

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 31:24

you have been following these groups that have using, I don't want even to say anabolics, but the whole spectrum of body composition for how many years, 3540 I mean, that's unbelievable. That's like a very large longitudinal study.

Nelson Vergel: 31:43

I Yes, I would think open label, yeah, yeah, I would, I wish I had a PhD student gathering my data. I have a lot of a lot of data, but yeah, there's a women's group on Facebook that I have over 28,000 women from all over the world talking about hormones and body composition quality. Facebook group, the testosterone replacement discussion group, has over 32,000 men all over the world, Excel male, also international, 45,000

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 32:12

and we'll link everything so people can find it.

Nelson Vergel: 32:15

Yeah, yeah. And I learn every day. I do. I learn by just reading what people are posting, which

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 32:23

is so interesting we have to, we just have to pause and understand that there is this idea that every and I believe as a physician, as our mutual friend, Dr lips and my car, we believe in evidence based practices, of course. And there is a moment where, you know evidence based practices end and experience begins, and this is what we're hearing from patients and people, and that really can then serve to inform what is potentially optimal, which is kind of counterintuitive to the landscape of medicine,

Nelson Vergel: 33:02

of course, I think every physician should have an assistant that is present online and is gathering field information from online because it's so easy now. It's so easy to gather because it's one thing where you read on the label of a product by the you know that, or the pharmaceutical person, or a rep that comes into your office, they just give you that packaged info that they label, and they cannot even speak of label. And it's challenging and off label. Off label, it's, you know, obviously. So the only way to learn off label uses is gathering information from the field, from from patients, and who has time for that? Doctors don't have time, obviously, right? So I really believe one day in near future, we will have specialists that only gather information of offline users online, because it's so easy and

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 33:55

that would be fascinating. Can you give me some of the biggest myths that you've seen over the three decades of use of anabolics that people have that would potentially create a roadblock for you have a 45 year old woman at home saying, I have low muscle mass. I've tried everything, whatever it is I am interested in anabolics, anabolic use, or whatever it is, or even hormones, but I'm afraid

Nelson Vergel: 34:28

first stigmatized thing that is not true is that hormones will make you aggressive. Hormones will kill your liver. Hormones will make you moody. Hormones will in men will increase your prostate cancer risk. Hormones in women will increase your breast cancer risk. Then mostly the aggressiveness, and that's how they solve the anabolic controls is. Terror Control Act, really? Yeah, tell me more about that. Yeah, they when you say anabolic steroids back then, everybody still freaks out every time. And everybody says, well, he's a cheater, and he's probably abusing his wife or his girlfriend or his partner. They do it's it's associated with behavioral issues with anger, which is most people in testosterone or any of these products actually feel better. Their mood is better, the quality of ice is better. They relate to people better. So that's a stigma and a barrier to access.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 35:37

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Nelson Vergel: 37:26

we have to, I would like to rebrand them, rename them, because it's really you cannot fight against a term that has been stigmatized for so long. I know so androgens really is a word that it really should summarize.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 37:42

They will call them androgens.

Nelson Vergel: 37:45

Yeah, anabolic agents, you know. But androgens and, yeah, there's using women, there's oxen alone, for instance. Yeah,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 37:53

let's talk about, let's break down the anabolic agents. Yeah, the the myths are basically, if I were to ask you, in appropriate doses are anabolic agents, dangerous,

Nelson Vergel: 38:05

inappropriate doses, and we can discuss what that means also, because, you know, bodybuilders, and thank God for bodybuilders. They saved my life. So I'm not criticizing. Bodybuilders tend to use very high doses, and they they tend to stack a few compounds together, because, you know, there's some synergy as more as some Yeah, but there are side effects, like, you know, high hematocrit, which increases viscosity in the blood, and cardiovascular issues come come around. There's other other issues, high blood pressure, renal issues that happen at high doses, but physiologic doses, lower doses, yeah, increase lean body mass, improve mood, that do not increase red blood cells as much anabolic and testosterone, which is testosterone, is anabolic. They have one main side effect is they're hemopoietic agents, meaning they increase the production of red blood cells in in the bone marrow, and that's a good thing for people with anemia, right? Because I need more. It's FDA approved for anemia, but if you depending on the dose, you go up too high on the red blood cells, and that makes a lot thicker and thicker, and the viscosity goes up. And the heart is a pump and pump, you know, they don't like viscous, thick liquids, so there is a concern about cardiovascular but if you disease or risk, so you keep the dose, like non drone, for instance, 100 milligrams a week. They're always used with testosterone. These molecules are so closely related to testosterone, we

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 39:36

should talk about non drilling in more detail, because I've only mentioned it on the show. I was actually waiting to have you on. And we've had Dr mahekara on. We've had Abe Morgentaler on as well. And I wanted to save the anabolic agent discussion

Nelson Vergel: 39:53

for you. Okay, we'll be here for a while.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 39:57

Tell me about nandrome. Yeah, nandalone

Nelson Vergel: 39:59

is a. Is a it's a beautiful molecule. It's it's an injectable, has no effect on liver enzymes, not alone, doesn't really a small decrease on HDL at 100 milligrams or so a week. For for men, women can use 25 milligrams a week with no visualization. Visualization of women can show up if you do higher doses of anabolics like peach fuzz, grow hair here, deepening of the voice. The worst side effect will be littoral enlargement, aminorea issues with menstruation. But at lower doses, you don't see those, those issues.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 40:42

And before you continue, I just want to put this in perspective for people. Typically, dandelion is given a 50% the dose of testosterone or less, yeah, and I was

Nelson Vergel: 40:52

going to get to that, yeah. Anabolics, basically are so closely related to testosterone that the body doesn't know the difference, and they tend to shut down your own testosterone production. Men and women, women produce testosterone too, and that's not a good thing long term, because sex drive decreases, erectile function, dysfunction can occur. So they should always use as an adjunct therapy with testosterone. So testosterone a ratio of, you know, one to one. Some people use it two to one, testosterone to nanolon or oxen alone. So it's an oral No, yeah, let's not jump. Sorry. So sorry, let's I'm a little too eager to talk about it all the products.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 41:36

Well, definitely, yes, I for for sure now, because people need to know that it is not some crazy compound. It's FDA approved. It can be used off label. It can be used off label safely. And I would love for you to talk about the safety profile, and again, how we think about dosing for men and women and potential indications.

Nelson Vergel: 42:00

Right now. Let's, let's talk about what, what is used right now, how the landscape of the use of nandolon, the Cano, it used to be called the Cajun, the brand name that's not longer, which was called deca, yeah. Well, now that's gone. The pharmaceutical brand is no longer available, only compounded, an under long made by compounding pharmacies. Empower pharmacies, one of the largest and is here in Houston. Very lucky to be in Houston, the best urologist, and the best of bet you're in here. So we're lucky city here when it comes to androgens. But anyways, neanderthalone shuts down like oxanolone, all the others your own testosterone production. So it's good to bring testosterone in at the same time, and that's a mistake that some bodybuilders have done in the past, and they experience, obviously, sexual dysfunction because of that. Right now, it's being used mostly by urologists. Some and urologists, they have all anabolics have this function that they decrease sex hormone binding globulin is this hormone that actually attaches to hormones and the activates them, basically, doesn't, doesn't allow them to do the biological why? Because it's a body. It's a way to for the body to to protect itself from large amounts of hormones. You know. So sex hormone by newglobulin is a good thing. People think it's a bad the body doesn't produce anything that is a need. But anabolics decrease sex hormone by newglobulin and free up more hormones. So in a when you use nonrenew and testosterone, you have higher free testosterone, which is really being correlated to all the good things about testosterone, free testosterone, not total. Some people may have good total testosterone, but very low free testosterone. And this they have symptoms, a lot of testosterone, low mood, low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, just not coping very well with stress. That's where I tell people, that's the number one. You know, symptom of having low testosterone and anabolics can actually improve free testosterone. So, I mean, I'm seeing it more used for that purpose to free up testosterone.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 44:13

What about estrogens and other hormones?

Nelson Vergel: 44:18

I'm a I'm one of the few people online that have read all the papers on estrogen. Amen. Let's talk about estrogen in men, and the importance of men and estrogen, testosterone converts into estrogen, or estradiol, only point 4% a tiny amount, because the body needs it to balance the effects of testosterone estradiol, estrogen is an enhancer of the effects of testosterone. So many dogs are blocking estrogen in men with an astronaut with an astroso, which is a no breast cancer drug, and that's actually counterproductive. And I'm probably one of a few people. There are a few of us on the internet now talking about it, and there are many papers that show that actually men with higher estrogen. Have better sex, five sex and sexual libido and sexual function. So most doctors are making that mistake about estrogen. Estrogen in women, we know. I mean, it's great for everything, benefits of mood, sex drive, bone density, you name it. And obviously menopause, that's when things change a little. So testosterone can and is a source of estrogen aromatization in fat cells in the liver. A lot of these conversions happen in the liver, as testosterone and anabolics also can convert into DHT, dehydro testosterone, excuse me, which is a very good, strong androgen that also improves sexual function, but it can be associated with hair loss or acne, and maybe prosthetic for men and women for men and obviously the prosthetic effects. But locking DHT and some men are doing that, that they can.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 45:58

We do not recommend finasteride. Yeah,

Nelson Vergel: 46:00

at all. It can actually kill your sex drive, decrease your mood, have long, lasting effects. I call it finasteride syndrome. So blocking, DHT, blocking estradiol is really counterproductive. These are metabolites of testosterone. They're friends of testosterone, that help in testosterone, and they're not enemies. I mean, that's, that's the thing about, I don't know why some people think that there's some bad hormones and some good hormones. In fact, these all hormones were made by evolution for a good reason, right to balance each other. And

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 46:32

also, testosterone is not just a male hormone, no. And estrogen

Nelson Vergel: 46:36

is not only a female hormone, exactly. So that's another one of those misconceptions, and some doctors are not educating themselves, and they're blocking either one of those two metabolites. Yeah, I don't know how I got digressing well.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 46:50

So basically, we're talking about why someone would use a anabolic agent, and an anabolic agent, specifically, for example, nandalone. And one of the things that all anabolic agents do will also lower sex hormone binding globulin, and that's how you got on the topic of the rest. Because, and I will say, from a clinical perspective, we like to see estrogen, depending on the lab, between 30 and 50 in men, we like to see robust estrogen levels in women. Women that have been on birth control will have high sex hormone binding globulin along with copper, and this tends to be the sex hormone binding globulin that increases. Tends to be irreversible, but we do see with use of low dose anabolics or other various agents that you can lower sex hormone binding globulin, thus making hormones available to the body. Great

Nelson Vergel: 47:49

point. Great point that what I was going to say about also about uses of mandalor, right of label, uses urology, especially their posters, and emerging data on joint pain reduction here in Houston, actually, the Baylor group, live shows and all, they actually have some good data, observational and self reported on the decrease, decrease in pain in men with, you know, joint pain

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 48:16

and is it fair to say it would also affect women, lower joint pain in Women,

Nelson Vergel: 48:20

there's no reason to believe that it's not right. This

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 48:23

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Nelson Vergel: 49:58

the data was you. Has been derived from men. Unfortunately,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 50:02

that's because the lip show. Lip shows, the group is they do see lip shows. His group primarily sees men, but the other providers that are also do see women. But the large database, I think, is

Nelson Vergel: 50:14

men, yeah, and there's good results. I mean, guys on Excel mail. I've used it for for Joint Pain workout. You know, anytime you work out and you get into either knee pain or shoulder pain, and that's when we freak out, and I don't know, actually improves, and we don't know that making this, I was gonna

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 50:32

ask you, do we know them, and do we also know the dose? Because it would be used off label. Off label means it doesn't mean that it hasn't been proven safe. Off label means that when FDA approval goes through for a indication, for example, this is FDA approved to treat anemia, that once the FDA is approved, like the FDA approval, you can use it then off label to treat various other indications. It doesn't mean that it is shady or unsafe. I do believe that that's important.

Nelson Vergel: 51:02

Yeah, that's very important. And I'm glad you, because we haven't really described what off label is. We're talking about off label, yeah, of label is actually clinical use, I mean, and many posters and abstracts are written and published on off label uses. Okay, nonethelong has a few of label uses. There's some data on multiple sclerosis. COPD,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 51:21

do we know, is it a muscular effect?

Nelson Vergel: 51:25

A muscular effect? COPD, you know people COPD, severe co they tend to lose muscle mass also, you know, they're expending all this extra energy with their, you know, their lung disease and all these problems. So it's good data on that, as I said, good data on under long use in advanced breast cancer for wasting and no compared to tamoxifen. Actually, there's comparable data tell me I was, I was I was really, I was really shocked. I i discovered this paper on like, six months ago, and it was really a paper that was generated in the late 80s. Yeah, comparing tamoxifen with dandelion, they have the same kind of survival rates, the same longevity. Obviously, tamoxifen dandelion, you have to modulate the masculinizing effect, so you have to be careful with the dose. But it had a really and the quality of life was better than on the max event. So that's shocking, because I do have some family members and friends that have have gone through really bad cases of breast cancer, so yeah, COPD, multiple sclerosis, there's some good pilot data on under long gone and all and on. I mean joint disease, HIV, obviously, Cassia, there have done some studies on cancer. Oncologists are afraid, yes, afraid of androgens. They're really afraid. And there's some androgen dependent cancers that you would try to avoid. The use of anabolics, but there's many are not. So

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 53:05

where do you think the do you think there'll be a re emergence of the anabolic agent use with the increase in GOP ones?

Nelson Vergel: 53:15

Nobody's doing the study. That's why I'm surprised nobody's doing this. I mean, I would love to see a study of nanolon use with glps. You know, they're both injectables or oxen alone and GOP ones to and do DEXA scannings, you know, to body measure body composition and baseline.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 53:32

Are we sure no one's doing those studies? I I haven't seen, I've checked. I

Nelson Vergel: 53:36

went to clinical trials or golf. And not everything is posted there, but most of it, no, nobody, and it's time, because we know that GOP ones, you know, semaglutide decreases lean body mass. You know, fat mass decreases too, but lean body mass decreases substantially. So how can we preserve lean body mass while fat mass goes down? That's a trick that we should actually, you know, be doing right now. So no, we have nobody, and I'm hopefully somebody that listens to the podcast can pick that up. But that will be a beautiful study to do in men and women. Low dose nandroloin with testosterone. Obviously, you have to do it with that, what would

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 54:15

be considered too high a dose of nandaloan from again, you've seen anything

Nelson Vergel: 54:19

above 150 milligrams a week, yeah, on andrelon and women, anything above maybe 80 milligrams 650, to 80 Yeah.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 54:30

And that would be really high. Yeah, really high you can do 25

Nelson Vergel: 54:35

with a testosterone for women, you know, low dose to end men, 100 milligrams of testosterone with 50 milligrams of nanolon. That would be safe, low dose, and GOP once, obviously, once a week. I think that would be that will make a lot of sense. I don't know any other androgens or anabolic any other medical approaches to increasing lean man. Is in people taking semaglutide or their sepatide, I just do not know. I'm thinking very strongly about it, and those who haven't seen it yet, products are already FDA approved. We know how to modulate side effects. It makes sense. And I would encourage

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 55:16

people who are listening to this again, we're not giving medical advice. The goal is to educate. I would suggest individuals dive into the literature and look for themselves. About neanderlo, use their randomized control trials for osteoporosis, for anemia, there's variation in dosing, whether it's, you know, 25 or less that people just and also the providers listening to and I

Nelson Vergel: 55:42

have extensive section on Excel mail.com Excel mail.com is a forum. It's not like Reddit. It's more organized than Reddit, but we have four we have folders in that forum, and one of the folders is called clinical use of anabolic steroids, clinical use. So we have sub filters, and one of them is all about dandruff. It's actually called all about dandrilla. So the clinical data on dandrilla off label uses in a table I summarized like perfectly. Clinicians love this. There's some their doctors on my side actually learning,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 56:17

which is, again, a very interesting space, because it's in some way, it's very niche, but it shouldn't be, and I believe that the reason it's niche is because of the immense stigma, and it's done a huge disservice to medicine in general, to muscle mass and medicine in general, because, hey, listen, it is much easier to lose body fat than it is to build muscle. Oh, yeah, and we have to come up with strategies. I mean, we have exercise and diet, and that's great, and we have things like high femme technology and blood flow restriction. We have various ways, but I've yet to see anything as impactful as anabolic agents. For example, in the face of a wasting syndrome, can diet and exercise all you want. It's still tough.

Nelson Vergel: 57:14

Oh, you can eat ice cream and mayo, that's what they use. Very difficult. Oh, go ahead and very difficult. Yeah, you know calories. I mean, lean mass requires an extreme intervention.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 57:25

And I want to point out something else is that there's testosterone, there's an androgenic to anabolic ratio, and the and testosterone, while is amazing, seems to be much more androgenic, meaning you'll see side effects in women depending on the dose, whether it's acne, hair growth, all of the things, whereas something like dandelion is more anabolic and will target skeletal muscle mass more robustly. Is that fair to say?

Nelson Vergel: 57:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's anabolic to androgenic ratio for every product, every androgen, every anabolic steroid, measured in a very strange way. But back in the 50s, they had, they actually were able to measure that in rats. And yeah, the molecules were changed for two reasons. They were changed from testosterone to decrease metabolism in the liver so that stays this Esther will stay longer in the body. And the second reason is to increase the anabolic to just to androgenic ratio, to make it more anabolic and less androgenic. Androgen is masculinizing effects. You know that that androgens can have in women, so that and alone has a high ratio. Axial loan have a high all of them, some of them, obviously, are the orals. May have some more liver issues, and that's why, also, I think we, we got a bad they got a lot of bad reputations, because a lot of this data came from something called oxymethalone, which really has damaging effects on liver. We did a study here in Houston, at my clinic, I had a clinic called body positive, funded study that we had to stop because of liver and science went up like fast with that product. So that product is FDA approved. But what was it for anemia, mostly, but it's too strong. Of it increases. Yeah, it's all metabolized by the liver, unlike oxanalon, which is metabolized in the renal tissue and liver, that's why it's less impactful on liver function. So there, there's some, and oxymethalone was the one that gave that bad reputation.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 59:37

What's

Nelson Vergel: 59:39

the other name for oxymethalone? So it also makes you moody, and so all this the

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 59:46

and is that considered illegal, is Anatole? Illegal? Is

Nelson Vergel: 59:50

FDA approved? It's just that very few people, very few prescribers prescribe it because we know it has more side effects. We did a study. We had to stop it. We have money to the study. Body, and we stopped it halfway because of safety issues. And people are probably

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:00:03

thinking, Okay, well, there's the normal sex hormones, bioidentical hormones. This is not that, right? These are compounds that are not made within the human body, no, but are close to testosterone, yeah, and close. These are various compounds that are very close but not the same, because people are probably thinking, well, is Nanda alone made in the

Nelson Vergel: 1:00:28

human body? It's not, no, no, they're modified molecules modified for decreasing metabolism in the liver and for improving anabolic effects. Those are the only two reasons, you know, and testosterone, obviously can't. Testosterone is an anabolic agent for men and women. Each you said it has more androgenic side effects, has

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:00:48

more side effects. Yeah. What would the next major anabolic agent be? We can move to Ox Angelo now. Okay. Do you feel that we've covered dandelion, yeah,

Nelson Vergel: 1:01:01

and people can read a lot more. Have easily 60 pages on angelon, on Excel mail.com, and by the way, I call it Excel mail. But women can also find information. There's 28,000 women on there, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I should, I should change the name, but it's a catchy name that I came up with. Anyways, yeah, we have a lot. People can find out more. They can google my name Nils from Virgil and andrelon, and I have a bunch of articles and

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:01:27

not Tori. We have all friends. We will put all of this so you don't have to rush. And we will make sure we get that to but I do like oxen alone a lot is because it's oral. The anabolic to androgenic ratio is is better than, even better than that alone. And the name is anavar Ana bar, which is a buddy building, which many physicians will not prescribe nowadays. And you can discuss, because I can discuss, yeah, again, some of our physician friends will and some will not.

Nelson Vergel: 1:01:55

I'm more than happy to discuss, because I really believe somebody has to clarify the whole thing. But anyways, it was approved. It was actually created by several pharmaceuticals back in the 50s, in the 60s, and it was not used, basically, sat on the shelves. Nobody really used it. It's an oral

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:02:14

50s. No one used it in the 50s. No,

Nelson Vergel: 1:02:17

no. It wasn't really it was kind of several actually abandoned it. And this company that got really smart called BTG pharmaceuticals, I was a consultant back in the 90s. After seeing our first data on angellon and wasting oxandulone or dandelion, they saw the data for nandalon, and they knew that there was this other compound that had been approved before. And the thing about Oksana, it was approved beautifully for an indication of treatment of unintentional weight loss due to illness, blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera. So really was an indication related to increasing weight in people with unintentional weight loss. Couldn't be better as an indication. It really is. So they picked it up, increased the price, did a study on HIV, got it approved, got it orphan drug status. What is orphan drug status? Or friend drug status is, and I can talk about it because I've worked on this a lot for HIV also is drugs is as drugs that are investigated for less than 200,000 people in the United States, people with complex diseases, genetic diseases, small populations under 200,000 that's an orphan drug. Gives you the exclusive rights, extended patent protection. You can actually charge a lot more money because it's a smaller population, and it gives you more protections, and it gives you tax incentives as a pharmaceutical company, the FDA actually has a whole department that supports companies that are doing orphan drug research with orphan drugs, so it's a faster way to get approved. It is a smaller it's for a specific indication. Is that for a specific population? Oh, population not indication, an indication? Yeah, because every you can move from indication to indication. Populations may be different, as long as it's under 200,000 200,000 people with HIV, 200,000 multiple sclerosis, 200,000 or less of COPD, as long as 200,000 or less. So BTG pharmaceuticals did that, and they got what was called oxandrin, you know, the brand name, and it got popular in HIV. Why? Because it was oral. No injections. Not alone. You can inject once a week. This is an oral every day. Women, the data in women look beautiful. I was part of a study where we had women take 10 milligrams and five and 10 milligrams of oxenden loan with great for 12 weeks. We cycle oxen alone for 12 weeks. Is there a reason? You know? There were some concerns, since we didn't know any better about long term liver issues, although every anabolic, every androgen, including higher doses of testosterone, they decrease HDL, the High Density Lipoprotein, which is, you know, supposed to be, the better the best, the better cholesterol. What most doctors don't know is that androgens, in general, also decrease lipoprotein A, which is one I actually did not know that. Yeah, most people don't know. I

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:05:29

should write more about it. We did a whole episode with Christy Ballantyne, androgens

Nelson Vergel: 1:05:33

decrease dramatically. LP, little a, yeah, dramatically. And that's something that I think I should do a better job on bringing that out. And

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:05:42

for the listener, LP little, A is a that it's a lipoprotein that is a risk factor. It's considered a genetic risk factor. Majority of the time it doesn't change it. I think it does change in women, depending on hormone status. But I did this episode with Christy Ballantyne, the former president of the lipid Association, and we did not talk about androgens. And from my knowledge, I didn't think that there was any medication that could I'm

Nelson Vergel: 1:06:08

going to post a few things. I'm going to send you the Yes, and we have, actually, I'm obviously, obviously, I'm going to see so big healthier. I also make sure these candidate labs I have. I own a company that actually provides affordable lab testing to people around the United States. We provide the doctor's prescription so people don't have to see the doctor. But anyways, I I've actually run l lipo Protein A on myself and friends that use in testosterone or anandrolon, and it's dramatic baseline compared to week fourth or six, dramatic changes. So people say, oh, you know, testosterone and anabolics are bad for lipids, because there's a decrease in HDL, but there's also the huge decrease in triglycerides. Is

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:06:52

there a way to bring up HDL, and is that necessarily meaningful?

Nelson Vergel: 1:06:55

Yeah, good question. I was hoping you didn't answer that question, because it's very complex, but very hard to bring HDL up, niacin, maybe. And studies are kind of conflicting. But is it meaningful that it would be? Well, we have one, only one or two studies where they use agents to increase HDL, and they did, but actually, mortality did not change. So their jury is still up. I will not put down. I will not go into that side of conspiracy or whatever it is to say HDL is useless, but we only have data on products that increase HDL and no benefit in mortality or longevity. So the fact that anabolics decrease HDL by maybe sometimes 20% is that significant? I

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:07:45

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Nelson Vergel: 1:08:43

all I know is that they decreased triglycerides. Grammatically, they decrease lipoprotein, a LDL depends on the dose. So on the lipid side, and you can run a whole lipid profile with like, you know, like cardio.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:08:59

I don't know if you notice, but we have a full concierge medical practice. Oh, no, I know that

Nelson Vergel: 1:09:07

you were on top of everything. I mean, you wrote books. No, no, I know this is all like, you know, you know that stuff. I'm just like, No, it's

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:09:17

the listener really needs to understand that these are it's not just one point. So it's not okay. Your testosterone is up. You now we've impacted your HDL, which is down, but it's this spectrum of what is your vascular health, LP, little a, LDL, cholesterol, apo, B, these things all ride hand in hand, the anavar or oxandrolon. So is anavar the black market name? Or is that because, again, you hear in the bodybuilding space, yeah, is I

Nelson Vergel: 1:09:51

tend to discourage my my audience to use either the word DECA or okay, because it Yeah, yeah. I mean. And those are bodybuilding terms. If we want to move this field forward, we need to let go of all that, all that branding. Besides, they're generic. We shouldn't be called in by brand name. It

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:10:09

would be the equivalent we should calling a band aid. Wait, what is the name for a band aid? It's a bandage, bandage. See, see, shouldn't call everything a

Nelson Vergel: 1:10:18

copy of sea rocks, you know, a copier. We shouldn't be associating those brand names anymore anyways. But I say oxen alone. Okay, it's oxen alone. Available. Is it legal? Is

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:10:29

it why would someone use it? It's an oral agent, you said, between five and 10 milligrams for women, for women a day for 12 weeks. And that would do what for them, increased lean body mass. Skeletal muscle are all lean mass. Lean mass. So that would be liver and yes,

Nelson Vergel: 1:10:46

but yeah, whatever all the data we have on DEXA is, is obviously leanness, the ones.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:10:52

Why are we saying this? We are saying this because we're not really great at measuring skeletal muscle mass directly. Lean mass includes everything except for

Nelson Vergel: 1:11:00

and I'm, I believe everybody that has access or can buy a DEXA totally should get a DEXA. And their company is now providing cheap DEXA. So I just got a DEXA for six $70 in Houston, DEXA scan, which is the only way to really find out how much lean mass, fat mass and bone density you have in every part of your body. And you can google DEXA, whatever city you are in, DEXA fit. There are few companies. They're doing that without a prescription. Thank God. Anyways, because that's really the only way to find out where your body composition is. We used to do BIA, but BIA is water dependent. So anyways,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:11:39

I still like BIA depending. Well, it's easy and you can do it three to 5% yes, I can. You don't need a $400,000

Nelson Vergel: 1:11:45

machine. So it's we used to do most of our data on waste. It was BCM body cell mass from BIA back then. Yeah, fascinating, yeah. But anyways, I'm getting digress. I'm so sorry. We

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:11:58

are regressing to we are forward grassing to oxando, yeah.

Nelson Vergel: 1:12:02

Okay, so it was approved, obviously, was used till whatever, till a few years ago, the pharmaceutical company, the last one, because it's changed hands three times, dropped it. Landroll was dropped by organ on two years ago, pharma said no, not, not enough money on this, or whatever it is, maybe their own stigma, and then compounding pharmacies. That's how companies pharmacists came into my life, because they took over say, we'll make it for you. Because people in HIV were actually freaking out that nanolon had been drug, and why did they drop it? And no reason. There's no safety issues, nothing. They just decide it's a market probably decision. So obviously compounding, compounding and the same thing three years ago, two years ago, the company dropped it completely. Just dropped it. They did

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:12:49

issue something January, 2023 was it 2023 where they said,

Nelson Vergel: 1:12:53

but the FDA said it was a safety issue, and they referred to a 1984 meeting. Okay, let's clear this up right now that 1984 meeting was really established to create, to come up with an abolition Control Act. That's the beginning

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:13:08

of all these nine Okay, so this is a little conspiracy theorist, and we're going to talk about it. Not really, there's no conspiracy, but basically, many providers will not write for oxandrome because of safety issues, alleged safety. So if you were to go to up to date, it'll say June, 2023 maybe 2420 2323 we are issuing a warning against oxandrome for liver toxicity. Yes. And many of the providers were like, well, that sucks, because this was helping treat postmenopausal women for sarcopenia. This was treating bone density. This was helpful in injury. This is helpful in adjunct treatment for obesity. And what you're saying is they determined that statement. Why would anyone do that based on a 1980 study?

Nelson Vergel: 1:14:04

1984 Yes, they have no data, no data. We have a lot of data. Actually, I sent a letter to the FDA summarizing all the data safety data, because they're all public on all the studies done on stand alone and even in pediatrics, they didn't see substantial it was in some cases, liver enzymes like ASD and lt will go up temporarily, temporarily, and then will resolve to baseline after stopping, because these things are not used continuously. That's something else that most people don't understand. We cycle oxen alone, you know, for 12 weeks gain all the benefits that we can, work out, eat, well, all this stuff, and then we move on. This is not a constant long term use in pediatrics, in women and men. Nobody does that. Some people may do it. But you know, so So to actually say and on. To have that reference 1984 which was a discussion a meeting during a study. None of the studies have said that Roxanne long is liver toxic. None of them. They also say minimal liver enzyme or Lfd elevations that were resolved with treatment sensation. So there's nothing like that. This is basically one person at the FDA not gonna say the name, although it is on the on the notice, don't say anything that actually had the stigma. The pharmaceutical company dropped it, and she actually added that statement. And the only reference she has is 1984 the study the drug has been used in many studies since then, all kinds, kids, women, men, HIV, non HIV. So now, what do people do? Well, compound is not removed from the compound do not compound or compound list, so it can be compounded. Once again, dandelion is compounded because organ, organ on left it it it is compounded. Empower pharmacy makes it it's legal. Is not removed, still on the list that it can be compounded, at least. Now, if they remove it from that list, the activists, the activists in me, will wake up again and activate all my HIV patients that actually will behind, will be behind this, because, you know, we have good data. We used in HIV a lot, and we have liver we're taking liver toxic HIV meds with this.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:16:26

It's wild. How many times a year could someone utilize an oral agent like

Nelson Vergel: 1:16:32

that, just two cycles of 12 weeks each, and what would they expect

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:16:36

if you were on a very low dose for, let's say, for women. So you have 10s of 1000s of women on you know, in your forums, if there's a five, five milligram or 10 milligram dose, I would

Nelson Vergel: 1:16:48

assume those women are exercising, yeah, both. Let's just make resistance exercise and garden. They do. Otherwise you're wasting your time, yes, and eating more of a high protein that. But let's assume yes, because otherwise, really, why? Why even take anything without doing it the way you know, comprehensively? Yeah, they will increase. That would probably become more lean. Do we have an idea of how many pounds of muscle in it's not in the data, as I've seen, is three, 3.5 kilos. You know, everything in clinical it's kilos. How many is that? 2.2 multiply that 888, pounds or seven pounds of muscle. You know how hard it is to get seven pounds

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:17:30

of I do, as a matter of fact, I'm, I've been trying for

Nelson Vergel: 1:17:35

Oh no, you're leaning on your you're in the perfect shape. Obviously, we all have to

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:17:40

have I paid him to say that guy

Nelson Vergel: 1:17:43

flipped him a 10. You're the muscle expert. So

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:17:48

I am the so they took it off. They didn't take it off the market, but they issued this warning, and then really all physicians, for the most part, stop. Would you say that most physicians stop prescribing it because of that statement, most

Nelson Vergel: 1:18:01

physicians stop prescribing it because they don't know is available in compounding from compounding because, yeah, yeah. And that that I am trying to get the compounding pharmacies to be more and you know, you can Google compound oxanone oxandrolon, empower pharmacies there on there,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:18:19

they shouldn't take and if someone is listening to this, they should not be experimenting with any of these things. Well, first of all, I believe in body autonomy. I believe people should be able to do what they want me to with their body. Me too. Also. I do believe that you should be under the guidance and the protection as much as possible, of a physician that you trust, yes and have a relationship with it is not a new doctor every time you go to the clinic, you know that is one thing that we have set up, very strict in our clinic, is you have a provider. You see your provider because they get to know you and the history. They remember your history. Of course, they need to know your favorite color, yeah, what kind of dog food your dog likes, whatever it is. But so if you are listening to this and you're thinking, You know what, I have been struggling with, perimenopause, menopause, I cannot put on muscle to save my life. I want to try an anabolic agent. Please do not go online and try to purchase something on your own without the guidance of a physician. I think that's a terrible idea. Would you Yeah, unless you are desperate well, but even then, yeah, right. We do not live in the same we don't live in the same world that yeah, that you actually yeah, survived in your 20s. And

Nelson Vergel: 1:19:36

the hardest thing, and I have to add, the hardest thing right now, is access, because people don't know where to go, and that really is the biggest barrier. And I see it online on my forms, people, the main question they ask is, hey, guys or ladies, I'm having this issue, I can find a doctor, or the ones that I have found dismiss me or tell me it's all my. Head or whatever, or don't want to prescribe, where should I go? Or that's a number one reason why people come to groups online, read it everywhere, and that's when people say, Hey, I'm getting it from this doctor, that doctor. So doctors are out there. Just it's very difficult, very difficult, I say, unless you know how to access how to let me just have one more thing I have to do. Yes,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:20:25

of course, Google has

Nelson Vergel: 1:20:27

changed. Google in the past five years has changed dramatically. When you google anything, the first page is full of ads and you don't get like my forums used to be on the first page down there in the third page, they have moved all product, all sites that are not paying for ads to the second and third page, things that were in the first page five, six years ago. Believe me, I've been on the internet since 94 and I play when it started, and I pay Google for ads for discount relapse. So people are not finding those groups right away, and they obviously nobody clicks into a second or third page of a Google search. I do, well you do because you're a researcher, but most people want to find their results here, I say to people, always search inside Facebook, because their groups galore. I belong. I run four. They're discussing daily. Always, Reddit is I know people think Reddit is crazy. Google just bought Reddit, by the way, but Reddit is a good source. Google there, or Reddit search there, women and men, Excel, mail, obviously, because if you go through Google just to find a doctor that prescribes oxen alone or whatever, you're not going to find it unless that doctor is paying for ads. Yeah.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:21:48

And also, I will say, if you guys need referrals, always contact our clinic. We have doctors that we trust that we can refer you to. Also, isn't there other search engines that are not VPN. You know, I was just talking, I was just on the Sean Ryan Show, and he, if you look at his YouTubes, you will see all kinds of ways around any kind of blocked access. So he's probably a good resource. They, yeah,

Nelson Vergel: 1:22:20

I use perplexity. I do. I want to plug papers here. I'm not getting paid. Perplexity

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:22:25

is not plugging it, not plugging it. I have to use it first. Don't trust if you listen, maybe I

Nelson Vergel: 1:22:31

can shift like perplexity is better than chatgpt. You can download the perplexity app and you can ask perplexity goes into detail. You comment on the quality of that yet. Well, yeah, you will. But even I shop on perplexity, I don't, I don't use, yeah, I don't use Google search. Anyways, we're like racing again. So what else are we? I

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:22:51

want to know if there was a difference between we talked about Nanda loan, we've talked about angelon and men and women. Primary component of that will be, it is more anabolic nandalone. We'll start with dandelion. Dandelion is injectable. From your perspective, anything above 150 I think there are various numbers in the data. It should be. It's typically 50% of a male testosterone dose for a man and for women. Again, typically for women, it's one, you know, 10th of a so for if testosterone is, say, 100 then maybe it would be 10 milligrams of nondual. Again, it depends if you're a provider listening. Obviously, we're not giving medical advice, but I think the exploration is to always start low for individuals. An individual could stay on nandrolone, as opposed to cycle, something like oxandrolon, from my understanding about dose at low dose, oxandre loan is taken orally, had a little issue in 2023 still available. The clinical indications are FDA approved for anything related to muscle loss, right? Is that

Nelson Vergel: 1:24:11

unintentional weight loss due to illness? And you can there's like five commas after that. Fascinating.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:24:19

Yeah. Fascinating. Which would have a bigger impact on body composition,

Nelson Vergel: 1:24:27

which would make you leaner? No oxygen alone. Oxandrolon, yes, the oral agent. What about the dose for men? For xanderlon For men, yeah, we studied 20 milligrams a day in HIV, heavily on it, but good enough,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:24:42

20 milligram for the perspective. HIV is a highly catabolic state, high catabolic. I mean, you're talking about

Nelson Vergel: 1:24:50

back then we have viral load. We were totally not have a control of the virus. The virus, the virus eats up lean body mass, muscle mass. It really act. System, when it activates fighting a virus, it needs nutrients, and where the nutrients come from, they come from muscle, muscle. So that's why, the more muscle you have, more chances for longevity. And

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:25:12

we see that with cancer, actually, you have a something like 260% greater risk of death if you go into cancer with sarcopenia

Nelson Vergel: 1:25:20

and aging like, you know, sarcopenia due to aging, yes, yeah. But anyways, yeah, on Alexander loan,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:25:28

20 so you were saying typing is more lean.

Nelson Vergel: 1:25:31

Yeah, 20 milligrams is what we study. You can, you know, compounders are making up to 50 milligrams, you know, one pill so, but the higher the dose, the two consequences, HDL reductions are bigger and some liver enzymes. Let's talk about liver enzymes real quick. I'd love to there's good data on the effect of exercise resistance exercise on increasing Asda, Lfd, and some people, some doctors, don't know that, and they freak out a little bit, and they don't know it's due to the resistance exercise program that this patient is going through. So because I sell blood tests, so I've seen for 10 years what's happening on that world, something else that doctors don't know, Mandarin testosterone, for instance, that if you use the wrong testosterone test, Mandarin alone will be picked up as testosterone. Tell me more. Tell me more about that. There are two types of testosterone tests, immuno assays, which are cheaper, faster, the ones that have been used for many years. They're still used because of that, cheaper and faster, but they get interferences that immunoassay, Inter, anything that is androgen, like that is like testosterone will pick it up as testosterone. So an andalone, you know, blood test versus test,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:26:51

right? So this is, yeah, you do urine, huh? We don't we? So our clinic, we do free total we do,

Nelson Vergel: 1:26:59

if you do liquid chromatography, slash mass spectrometry, which is the only thing you know, I sell that test for $40 then you pick up what, testosterone, testosterone, testosterone. So the Nando known, sometimes I see that where doctors are using the immunoassay and obviously getting a 2000 nanograms of testosterone result and freaking out, Hey, your dose is too high when, in fact, is you're picking up, you know, like, for instance, biotin, which is a supplement that men and women use for there's conflict there for hair growth or hair loss, also affects immunoassays, is picked up and either decreases or increases depending on The thyroid or testosterone. So there's supplements that can affect the test results.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:27:44

Can someone test for noun directly in the blood?

Nelson Vergel: 1:27:47

No, that's only used in sports. That's non clinical, but research based, yeah, yeah, but they do use it in the Olympics and yeah, but one

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:27:59

would also expect to see a decrease in FSH or LH in women, yes, or suppression, so we

Nelson Vergel: 1:28:05

haven't talked about that, yeah, or anabolics, or androgen testosterone, basically shut down your hypothalamic pituitary gonadal, which is ovaries or just axis, so you basically stop producing testosterone, stop producing LH and FSH. Sperm production decreases dramatically.

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:28:26

Ovulation is affected for women, so wanting to get pregnant,

Nelson Vergel: 1:28:30

one of the things that yeah, that's one of the side effects that have to be managed the best, especially in younger people that want to have kids, and that's when we can talk about HCG and Clomiphene. But, yeah, yeah. I don't know if you want to go into but I'm more than happy

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:28:46

to we'll have you back on talk about that. But the fertility is definitely impacted. Fertility is impacted. And also, if a woman is in perimenopause, menopause, if you shut down her FSH, LH, you're not really going to be able to see because estrogen, can be all over the place. It just again. If you're trying to identify where you are, just keep in mind that if you are using these agents, even testosterone will decrease FSH and LH. Nelson, you said something really interesting about liver enzymes and AST alt, we do see occasionally go up during intensive exercise. And oftentimes, people that don't treat athletes or people that are very active, they might get concerned. Physicians might get concerned. And also, to be fair, we're not talking about two and a half times baseline liver enzymes. We're talking, I don't know, might bump up into the 50s or so. And I'm sure you see that a lot,

Nelson Vergel: 1:29:39

yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the concern I have sometimes when, like you said, doctors are not really familiar with, you know, the athletic key. You know, athletics and people using other compounds like this, like anabolics, the fact that exercise can be, you know, an influence on afds, health, liver and science, liver. But, you know. There's also another test that I also sell on this current labs, because it's a, it's a good test. It's a, it's a test that really tells you precisely if you have liver toxicity, besides bilirubin, which is another one, it's a GGT and and most doctors don't even use that when they see an increase, let's say, 20% 30% beyond baseline, they just discontinue the treatment, the medication, the medication, and in fact, is you should go a little deeper before you do so, especially with androgens, and do a GDT. The same thing with kidney function. Most of, most of the athletes I know, including myself, I take it daily. They're taking creatine, creatine monohydrate, which has been shown to all kinds of benefits. And creatine can increase EGFR, which is a measure of kidney function. And doctors freak out too, without really running another test, like cystatin C to see whether or not is influenced by supplements. So there's a few studies I've seen where physicians or the researchers have decided to stop a treatment based on on just L, you know, ASD or aft one or one GFR or EGFRs,

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:31:14

and that's where I'm glad that you're bringing this up, because from there is this idea of indications for disease. Physicians are trained to look at patterns of blood work, because typical disease patterns will show up in a particular way in blood work. And then there's this interesting aspect of those that are in the athletic population, or people that are moving their body a ton or have higher muscle mass, you will see those individuals have higher blood level, creatinine. And what I hear often is patients will come in and say, oh my gosh, I'm nervous. My creatinine is high. Well, your muscle mass is high, your creatinine should be high. And the way that you get a really good picture is you run something called a cystatin C and then you'll get a corrected GFR. So if you are out there and you are looking at your own blood work and you are worried about your creatinine and your kidney function, please take a deeper dive. And also, if you are looking at your standard liver enzymes like AST or alt, one could also do something called a GGT or a bilirubin test. And I think that those are a little pearls. You know, medicine, we have the medical pearls for individuals that are highly active or really optimizing their muscle mass. Well, Nelson Virgil, I have learned so much from you. You really, again, you occupy a very unique place in society and place in this industry, in the way that you have been there. You know that saying, been there, done that, thank you. You have been there, done that, and it really was life or death for you, and because of that, you have advocated and saved countless lives. Thank you. And I also believe that your work is not done, no, and the next iteration of your work just going to throw you to the fire, I think has to be to bring anabolics to the public. I

Nelson Vergel: 1:33:16

agree. I agree, and I see it coming. I also see more infringement of the FDA and other regulatory agencies on access compounding access of compounded products HRT may be affected in the future for women. Hormones, in general, there are 11 hormones on the list that may actually be stopped from being compounded, really, yes, and obviously, that's another topic we can talk about in another podcast. But preparing my activist efforts to activate all the groups I have the 1000s of people are following on my groups. In case that happens because access to hormones are I would say more than 60% 70% of patients are accessing hormone treatments. Are accessing it through compounded products, and not just pharmaceutical grade products, because they're usually more expensive. They require more so that's something I'm really preparing myself for, because I see it coming. Hopefully, who knows with this administration, but the access to hormonal treatments, affordable homeowner treatments, may be affected by decisions from legislators that really have stigma in their heads or also have the interest of pharmaceutical the pharmaceutical companies funding them. So I'm sorry that I just dropped this at the end, but it is the future. It is the future that I think it's for me, at least for my work I

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon: 1:34:59

was. I love that you're right on many things, and I hope this is not one of them. And I hope that hormone replacement therapy and hormones in general remain accessible to the public through compounding pharmacies, which are much lower cost and just as high quality. So again. Nelson Virgil, thank you so much for coming on. We will link everywhere where to find you, and all of your books and your forums and again. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. If you're listening and found this episode valuable, don't forget to subscribe. Share this with someone who needs to hear it, and leave us a comment. We love hearing from you. You.